Friday, November 20, 2009

Closing Arguments: Day 1. An Odd Summation

Co-prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini attempted to prove that he can read minds and has psychic abilities to see the past in ways previously unknown to man. I have to say that out of all the cases I've followed, I've never seen a prosecutor who made so many unsubstantiated assumptions based on no evidence. However, the fact that Mignini is forced to make such assumptions highlights just how weak his case truly must be.

And ever more embarrassing, convicted Rudy Guede's story suddenly has crediblity in the eyes of Mignini. Ann Wise reports: "Mignini said the two women had argued over rent money missing from Kercher's room. "

Of course, the only source that any sort of argument of this kind occurred is from Rudy Guede. And so Mignini theorizes that this is how it began, and it thus resulted in a brutal stabbing with Amanada as the ring leader. A strange brand of theorizing based on unsubstantiated "could haves" and "maybes".

Mignini stated further in his closing: "After a heated discussion the three, under the influence of the drugs, and probably alcohol as well, decide to put into action the project they had of involving an extreme sex game," he said. (Probably alcohol? Another great unsupported supposition to conveniently throw in it seems)

And now thankfully, we can put to rest the rumor floating around the blogosphere that the "sex game" theory was one put out by Knox PR to make Mignini look unhinged and irrational. Mignini solved the question for us in this respect; it's best to remember it again for posterity's sake should revisionist bloggers attempt to rewrite history and coverup for Mignini's penchant for the absurd and unbelievable.

And then Mignini gives us the motive we've all been waiting for:

"Amanda has the occasion to get back at that overly serious and moralizing English girl who she felt was too tied to the closed group of her English friends, and who accused her not too subtly of not being orderly or clean, and who criticized her for being too easy with boys," Mignini said.
"Amanda nurtured her hate for Meredith, but that night that hate could explode. For Amanda the moment had come to take revenge on that prissy girl. That is what she must have thought. And in a crescendo of threats and increasing violence, Meredith's ordeal begins."
The criticism of one's hygiene can make a person do awful things....
Moreoever, Mignini proved that having no evidence to support an assertion can actually be a great thing. Rather than being forced to constrict ones theory based on mountains of solid evidence, when one has very little to go on, he can let his imagination run wild with unsubstantiated theories:

The prosecutor said Knox likely insulted Kercher during the assault, and imagines Knox saying, "Now you'll be forced to have sex."
And so again we are left with Mignini's grand suppositions. Interesting from a literary or satire perspective, but Mignini believes what he is saying is all too real.

A few weeks ago Mignini offered to "surprise" us all. Well, he did just that. But not in the way anyone would expect.

From Perugia-Shock



Mignini sees. Mignini hears.

Amanda Knox brings home Rudi and Raffaele. In this order, yes. Because, for her, Rudi comes first and then, only as a second choice, Raffaele.

We don't know what is planned. She maybe just wants to go have some fun, maybe she just wants to disturb Meredith. She maybe wants to have a threesome and since there's also Meredith there, doing her homework, a foursome with the good girl. Particularly exciting. Whether she agrees or not. Actually better if she doesn't want to.
Because it's not love moving Amanda, or attraction. It's hate. It's VENDETTA.....Continued here

NBC News




CNN: Amanda Walking into Court


CBS News Interview the Amanda Knox's Parents


Watch CBS News Videos Online

CBS Report

Wednesday, November 18, 2009

Rudy Guede's Appeal


For any fair minded observer, today was not a surprise at all. We learned absolutely nothing new about what happened. Proceedings in Rudy Guede's appeal have been adjourned to December 21st when Guede's attorneys will argue their case. If you were expecting anything significant to come out of these proceedings, you probably have pretty bad instincts.

Guede told a fanciful story about the murder being a fight over money between Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher and then rushed into the room where he fought off an attacker. Adding insult to injury, Guede claims he actually tried to save Meredith and tried to mop off her blood with towels, but then panicked and left.

Let us not forget that Guede is the same man whose DNA was found in Meredith's private area, and that his bloody hand print was found on Meredith's purse (and yet he was acquitted of the theft charge--a perfect example of the ridiculousness of this case).

If anything became clear today, it is becoming harder and harder to envision a scenario where all three defendants would come together to participate in this crime. Mignini has an impossible task at creating a realistic scenario involving the three. Whether that will matter---well, I am not so confident in the Italian judges, but time will tell.

Theoretically, Guede's trial, and any testimony therein, has absolutely no impact or weight with the trial against Knox and Sollecito. However, the judges and jury are not sequestered.



1. Ann Wise's report for ABC

2. For AP report, click here


3. Sky News Reports.



Full article here.

4. Pisa's detailed report for the Daily Mail. (Most detailed report in English so far today)

5. Nick Squires of the Telegraph also reports
:

Rudy Guede, 22, said that on the night of the murder he heard Miss Kercher and Miss Knox, her American room-mate, arguing over money in the bathroom of the house that they shared in the Italian university town of Perugia.

Minutes later he heard a “piercing scream”, he told the court in Perugia, where the case has been heard since January.

The court is expected to reach a verdict on Miss Knox, 22, of Seattle, and her Italian former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 26, early next month, and will begin hearing closing arguments on Friday. They deny any wrongdoing.

Guede addressed the court for the first time as he launched an appeal against his 30-year jail sentence, handed down last year in a separate trial during which he was convicted of the murder.

Full article here


Sunday, November 15, 2009

The Crucible of Perugia

The Crucible of Perugia

Written by Mark C. Waterbury, Ph.D.

In medieval times in Europe, roughly one hundred thousand people, three quarters of them women, were tried for witchcraft. With charges often based on accusations from those already under suspicion, most were convicted and were burned, hung, or strangled. Thankfully, that dark era is past, and such groundless, perverse, inhuman prosecutions no longer take place. For the most part.

A conspicuous exception is drawing to a close in Perugia, Italy, where Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are on trial for a murder that they clearly did not commit. Like the absurd evidence used to convict witches, their prosecution hinges on a series of deliberate distortions, half truths, and outright lies. I’ve discussed this evidence in previous articles. Now let’s take a look now at the crucible of witch hunt justice, Perugian style.

Medieval witch hunts didn’t just happen. They were fed by an atmosphere of superstition and fear. After a slow start, they soared after the publication of the “Hammer of Witches,” one of the first printed books. "All wickedness," Hammer tells us, "is but little to the wickedness of a woman….Women are by nature instruments of Satan.” Witches were also believed to have powers to control and coerce men. Perhaps this misogynistic insight is where prosecutor Giuliano Mignini came up with his obsession with Amanda, and the accusation that she led a “satanic sex ritual,” since no evidence of one has ever been presented.

Like the fancy garb and pretentious air of the prosecutor, this instruction manual for atrocity conferred a mantle of authority, an official air, that carried great weight in the small towns and backwaters where the most ardent witch hunts occurred. Backwaters not unlike Perugia, Italy. Perugia, you see, is no Rome.

Wikipedia calls witch trials “a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of religious extremism, false accusations, lapses in due process, and governmental intrusion on individual liberties.” This will all sound familiar to those who have followed this case. “Evidence that would be excluded from modern courtrooms-- hearsay, gossip, stories, unsupported assertions, surmises-- was also generally admitted.” Deja vu all over again.

This trial didn’t just happen either. It is a direct result of a serious, ongoing aberration in the legal system in Perugia. An aberration that is driven by a rogue prosecutor who is himself, under indictment for obstruction of justice and illegal wiretapping in the Monster of Florence case, a previous, bizarre prosecution that also, coincidentally, involved satanic cults.

More Weight
A good place to start to understand the witch hunt system of justice is the case of Giles Corey, a prosperous farmer and church member in Salem, Massachusetts in the late 1600s. A woman accused Giles of asking her to write in the devil’s book. This same woman also claimed to have been told by a ghost that Giles was her murderer. He was therefore arrested along with three women, one of whom, terrified and desperate to gain favor with the prosecutor declared that Giles was a warlock.

As with Amanda, there was no evidence of any of this. How could there be? None of it was real. In a way, Giles’ guilt was established “psychologically,” just as Amanda’s was by the lead investigator, Giobbi, though that impressive sounding word had yet to be invented.

Giles refused to enter a plea, guilty or innocent. If he did he would certainly be convicted, his assets seized, and his family would lose everything. The court therefore slowly crushed him under rocks while asking, three more times, if he was ready to plea. Each time he famously replied, “More weight.” It took two days of this to kill him, and witch trial justice was served.

I Just Highly Doubt All of That
Amanda’s family’s assets have already been plundered by the process of justice. But, at age 20, Amanda did not show the resolve of Giles Corey when her inquisitors pressed her to imagine what might have happened at the murder, insisting that she knew, but was lying to them. After days of questioning, in the middle of the night, in a language she barely knew and without an attorney, she took their bait and, as suggested, pictured Patrick Lumumba committing the crime. As soon as possible, she made a written statement saying that it all seemed like a dream, that she was unsure what was real and what was imagined. Nevertheless, the witch hunters touted this as an accusation, one witch of another, and raced off to capture Patrick, again ignoring the total lack of evidence.

That accusation didn’t pan out, as it was soon proved that Patrick had nothing to do with it, but the witch hunters weren’t through with Amanda. They leaked her diary to the press, a violation of Italian law, and twisted it to their needs. Here is the original passage where she discusses Raffaele and his kitchen knife.

"Raffaele and I have used this knife to cook, and it's impossible that Meredith's DNA is on the knife because she's never been to Raffaele's apartment before. So unless Raffaele decided to get up after I fell asleep, grabbed said knife, went over to my house, used it to kill Meredith, came home, cleaned the blood off, rubbed my fingerprints all over it, put it away, then tucked himself back into bed, and then pretended really well the next couple of days, well, I just highly doubt all of that."








Notice that Amanda wrote, “It’s impossible that Meredith’s DNA is on the knife because she’s never been to Raffaele’s apartment.” Think about this for a moment. Amanda only thought about DNA from Meredith visiting, not from being murdered. That hadn’t even occurred to her. It is a natural, human mistake. One that suggests innocence.

But here is the English translation of the Italian translation (you read that right) of that same diary entry, that appeared in much of the Italian and British press. Notice that the meaning, the exact opposite of Amanda’s meaning, is greatly improved as it met the witch hunter’s needs much better.

"That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I don’t remember anything. But I think it’s possible that Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped her and then killed. And when he got home, while I was sleeping, he put my fingerprints on the knife. But I don’t understand why Raffaele would do that."

This gave the witch hunters another false accusation to work with. They used this tortured translation to claim that Amanda had accused Raffaele, even though that was the exact opposite of what she wrote. And they spread it far and wide with the aid of a willing, gullible, gutter, press.

In Meredith’s Blood
These were just appetizers for the main course of false accusation that is about to be served. But first, let’s talk just a little more about the evidence. In a previous article we discussed the importance of control tests in the scientific method. One of the best kinds of controls is something called an “internal standard” that is, a control that is built right into the same device, or environment, so you can compare what you’re wondering about with something else that has been there, and done that. In the case of this murder, we have an excellent internal standard for whether Amanda and Raffaele were involved in the crime. His name is Rudy Guede.

If we compare the evidence left behind by Rudy with that left, or, rather, not left, by Amanda and Raffaele, we can see a stark difference. That is because Rudy committed murder, while Amanda and Raffaele did not.

“No matter how much someone tries to clean up a crime scene, something is generally left behind.... it's almost impossible to take any kind of violent action without shedding something.”

By his own admission, Rudy was present when Meredith died. He stated that he left her bleeding to death, then washed her blood off his shoes and himself, went out dancing at a local disco, and fled the country like any aggrieved person would do. If we look at the evidence he left behind, and compare it with the lack of traces of Amanda and Raffaele, we can see that the evidence solidly supports their innocence, and Rudy’s guilt.

Rudy left his DNA in, on, and around Meredith. These were not picogram traces that could have come from anywhere, they were substantial, reproducible, indisputable, evidence.

Rudy left his excrement in the toilet.

Rudy suffered a cut on his right hand during the struggle.

Rudy left footprints, in Meredith’s blood, in the bedroom, bath, and hall.

Rudy left handprints, in Meredith’s blood, on the wall and on a pillow case.

Rudy left his DNA, and Meredith’s blood, on her purse as he ransacked it.

In contrast, there was no DNA from Amanda in Meredith’s room, despite the fact that she lived in the same apartment. There were no fingerprints, footprints, or other traces of Amanda in that room. She had no wounds on herself and left no marks on Meredith. Despite claims that her footprints were found in the hallway with luminol, they cannot be attributed to her, but could have been made by any of the girls who lived there, and could have been made at any time. Further, they did not show any traces of blood.

Amanda Knox left no traces whatsoever of presence at the scene of the crime, because she wasn't there.

Similarly, there was no DNA from Raffaele in the room. There were no footprints, no handprints, no other traces and he had no wounds. None. Of course, the prosecution tried to assert that there were. They grossly mismatched his foot and shoe to prints clearly left by Rudy. They dug up the bra clasp 47 days after the rest of the forensic data was collected, after it was kicked about the floor, buried under a rug, and seriously contaminated. They then declared that it, and it alone (not the bra that it was cut off from!) carried his DNA. But setting aside this single piece of grossly contaminated and quite possibly planted evidence, there is no trace of Raffaele at the scene of the crime.

Further, Amanda and Raffaele did not flee the country, even though some of her relatives pleaded with her to do so. They did not even retain lawyers, even though they should have. They thought that innocence would protect them. But innocence, in a witch trial, is merely an inconvenience.

I have promised one more false accusation, and haven’t forgotten that promise. It will come from that paragon of virtue, Rudy Guede. His lawyer has given notice that he will testify against Amanda during his appeal. This would be laughable, were it not for the gluttonous appetite of the prosecution for any lie, any distortion, any false evidence to convict her of a crime she did not commit. So look for them, and for the gutter press, to tout it as the truth, at long last. From someone who has told lie, after lie, after committing horrific, senseless murder.

The Crucible of Perugia
Is there any hope for a just verdict for Amanda? This isn’t a real witch trial, after all, and the judges and lay jurors are not fools. They have given Mignini almost everything he has asked for, but that doesn’t mean that they believe his fairy tales. He has had every opportunity to establish guilt, but has failed to produce more than tainted evidence, bizarre stories by drug addicts, and leaks and insinuations unsupported by the facts.

Many say that they will rule guilty to avoid what is called “bad face,” to “save face” in English, because they have made earlier rulings that suggest they believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. But not all rulings have gone that way. When the prosecution had Kokomani testify that Amanda had a large gap in her teeth, one of these judges simply asked Amanda to smile, showing no gap at all.

There is still time for the crucible of Perugia to yield a just verdict.

The judges can show the courage do what is right, not what is easiest.

They can do what is fair, not what will avoid “bad face.”

They can prove the skeptics wrong and show that they understand and value justice.

They can acquit Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of a crime they did not commit.

--By Mark Waterbury, Ph.D.

Saturday, October 31, 2009

Linda Byron Report from Perugia


by LINDA BYRON / KING5 News

Posted on October 30, 2009 at 10:18 PM

Updated yesterday at 11:07 PM

PERUGIA, Italy - The Amanda Knox trial is being closely watched from the largest cities to the smallest villages in Italy.

The tiny Umbrian village of San Martino dei Colli looks down upon the Capanne prison where Knox is locked away on murder charges. On a Sunday afternoon, the Bartolocci family is gathered in the 15th century villa for a family feast.

continued here

Saturday, October 17, 2009

Full Video of Larry King Live Discussing Case Against Amanda Knox

Semen Stains Found on Meredith's Pillowcase

Story from Oggi Magazine by Giangavino Sulas:  




Story from Corriere Dell Umbria: 10/17/09



Two articles in Italy recently reported that a defense expert found semen on Meredith Kercher's pillowcase.  The expert is suspected to be coroner Fransesco Vinci, an expert who testified on behalf of Raffaele Sollecito.  If true, how could police investigators have missed this?  And whose semen is it?  Will the American media take notice?


Translations for both articles should be available here later this week.


Email: Rayrayturner@gmail.com

Curt Knox, Edda Mellas, Judy Bachrach (Vanity Fair), John Q. Kelly (Former Prosecutor) go on Larry King to talk about the case against Amanda Knox.





KING: Welcome back. It's being called the "trial of the century" in Italy; 22-year-old American exchange student Amanda Knox and her Italian ex-boyfriend are accused of the murder and sexual assault of Amanda's British housemate, Meredith Kercher. Kercher was found semi-naked, her throat slit, in the house she and Amanda shared with two others in November of 2007.

A third person -- a man from the Ivory Coast -- was convicted of the brutal killing in a separate proceeding last year. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison. His appeal is slated for next month. Amanda's trial got underway in January. Testimony and evidence presentation has now been complete. Closing arguments begin November 20. The jury will deliberate on December 4th.


EDDA MELLAS, MOTHER OF AMANDA KNOX: You know, she's hanging in there. It's been a long time, she's -- you know -- innocent and has sitting in -- sitting it in jail, so it's scary, but she's doing the best she can.


KING: How are you doing?





CURT KNOX, FATHER OF AMANDA KNOX: We're hanging in there, we're -- we're being strong for her. I mean --

KING: Do you go over and see her?

KNOX: Oh, absolutely. I think both Edda and I have made at least 12 trips over there, back and forth over the last couple of years.

KING: Few days ago, the court rejected her request for an independent review of contested evidence. What are your lawyers tell you about how serious that is?

EDDA MELLAS: Well, I mean it could be good or it could be bad. I mean we asked for the independent review because we were sure that anybody independently looked at it, would support our position. Maybe the court decided that they don't even need that support, that our arguments have already been good enough.

KING: What do you make of the whole thing Curt? What's -- what's your view of this? I mean you were not there.

KNOX: I believe that there was a huge mistake made very, very, early on by you know having a -- literally a case closed, you know, presentation by the police over there. And then when they really found out that -- that Rudy Gooday (ph) was the one that actually did it --

KING: The man convicted.

KNOX: The man convicted -- that they were just too far into it and they've been trying to press it ever since.

KING: Now was your daughter and her boyfriend present at --

KNOX: Not at all, they -- they stayed at her boyfriend's house the night that the murder took place.

KING: Why were they arrested?

KNOX: You know, in the time between when Meredith was found and the time of their arrest, there was total of ninety hours in that window. During that time, they were questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours. The last of that was a 14 hour all night interrogation, where there was psychological abuse, physical abuse, where she was hit. And at that stage of the game, I think, you know, they made conclusions.

KING: Were they tried together? Her and --

MELLAS: Yes, they are being tried together.

KING: Amanda testified in June sometimes in English, sometimes in Italian. Here's a little of what she said about her interrogation by police several days after Meredith Kercher's murder, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANDA KNOX, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: They called me a stupid liar. And they said that I was trying to protect someone. So I was there and they told me I was trying to protect someone. But I wasn't trying to protect anyone. And so I didn't know how to respond to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: And at the immediate aftermath of the murder, your family in Germany -- you have family in Germany?

MELLAS: Yes --

KING: -- suggested that Amanda come and stay with them. You said she made a big mistake in not leaving Italy.

MELLAS: Yes. Actually many people asked her. We all asked her.

KING: She should have split.

MELLAS: Absolutely, she had many opportunities the police have that on record but didn't release that until almost a year after the crime. And but they did have on record that many people asked her to leave but she said no. "I'm going to stay. I'm going to try and help. I'm going to try and finish school" And one of the reasons that they said they were holding her and not releasing her because she was a flight risk. But she never planned to flee.

KING: What was her motive, Curt? What does the state say was her motive in killing this person?

KNOX: Well, the state said that it was a drug infused sex orgy --

KING: Between her, her boyfriend, and this woman?

KNOX: Yes.

KING: And the other guy. Four people were there --

(CROSS TALK)

KNOX: Yes, and that -- they didn't even know this other guy.

MELLAS: Yes.

KING: The state's contentions were four people were present and one died. One has been convicted? Does your daughter know this person that's been convicted?

MELLAS: You know she had vaguely met him. You know when she was arrested and he was arrested, she couldn't even remember his name. And he's the only one that left DNA, finger prints, everything all over the crime scene. Nothing of Amanda, but still she's in the same kind of boat that he is in.

KING: What a puzzle! We'll be right back with more, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TEA LEONI, ACTRESS: Hi, I'm Tea Leoni. As one of CNN Hero's Blue Ribbon panelists in 2007, I helped recognize the extraordinary work of every day people who are changing the world. As both a board member and goodwill ambassador for the US Fund for UNICEF, I advocate for the world's children, and work to increase awareness and funding for their needs.

I see clearly just how much the world needs heroes. Now, I am thrilled to help CNN introduce one of this year's top ten honorees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD BLAUSER, CNN HERO: Disabled children, they're really the forgotten ones in this war. I came to Iraq as a civilian contractor. There were a lot of children that either dragged themselves on the ground or they had to be carried.

There were so many people willing to reach out and touch the lives of these kids.

My name is Brad Blauser. I bring pediatric wheelchairs to Iraqi children in need. People donate on my website. The wheelchairs are brought over. I distribute them to the different military units, and help get these children into the wheelchair.

There is no paycheck. It's not really safe here, but I made a difference in the lives of these families.

Definitely, the sacrifice has been worth it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I interviewed him. What a great story! Have the Knox's ever considered the possibility -- possibility that their daughter could be guilty? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Edda Mellas and Curt Knox remain, the parents of a Amanda Knox. Joining us in New York, John Q Kelly, former prosecutor and famed civil litigator, frequent guest on LARRY KING LIVE. It's good to see him. It has been a while. What are your thoughts on this case John?

JOHN Q. KELLY, FMR. PROSECUTOR: My thoughts, Larry, it's probably the most egregious, international railroading of two innocent young people that I have ever seen. This is actually a public lynching based on rank speculation, and vindictiveness. It's just a nightmare what these parents are going through and what these young adults are going through also.

KING: You don't know John, do you?

MELLAS: No, no.

KING: What do you make of it John? Why would they do this? If they already convicted someone, why go after Amanda and this other guy?

KELLY: Well, as I said, it's almost because Amanda showed too much stoicism after the death of her roommate, who she barely knew. These were two girls living together less than eight weeks.

And, you know, Larry, you've always seen this in these murder cases and things like the husband didn't cry enough, or they weren't upset enough when the children went missing. This is one of these things where, I guess, under the Italian culture, she did not respond the way they wanted her to respond. And they sort of put together a case with, you know, gum and toothpicks to try to make a case against her. And it is outrageous.

KING: Edda, do you ever think she might have done it?

MELLAS: Never.

KING: Do you, Curt?

KNOX: Never.

KING: John, the court's recent decision to reject her request for an independent review, does that help or hurt on appeal, if she's found guilty?

KELLY: Well, first of all, I certainly hope she's not found guilty. It would help her appeal, because it would show she was deprived of something that could have been very significantly helpful to her. She lost her own forensic expert, who, I think, left the team in May or so.

So -- but I mean, there's no forensic evidence. There's no physical evidence. There's no motive. There's no opportunity. There's no confession. There's no substantive evidence whatsoever against Amanda.

KING: Well, who has the state presented as witnesses?

KELLY: I think the only forensic evidence they had was a small portion of Amanda's DNA on the handle of a knife in Raffaele's apartment, where she was all the time. And it's not even consistent with the murder weapon that was used. The murder weapon was a three and a half inch knife. This is a six and a half inch knife that had a minute portion of Amanda's DNA on it, and inconclusive tests that on the tip of it there was some of Meredith's blood.

And it's just -- it wouldn't even hold up before a grand jury, and now we're trying to send these young people away for life.

KING: Now, John, you're a former prosecutor. Normally, prosecutors stick together, so we appreciate your standing up here. What is your knowledge of Italian courts? Are the juries generally open and fair?

KELLY: The problem with this is the jury's made up of six lay people and two judges. The jurors are not sequestered, and there are these huge lapses in the trial. Like right now, we have a month and a half now between this and closing statements where the jurors are home, watching the news, being inundated with whatever spin the local media wants to put on it. Obviously, they're not favorable, certainly, towards Amanda. They love showing the shot you're showing there that shows some sort of indifference. What I think it shows is some sort of compassion and care between them, and that they're upset about what happened to Meredith.

But, you know, the case is being tried in the public. There is nothing that's substantive that links into the crime, but it's just sort of -- it's almost like gotcha time. The Italians and this prosecutor want to get Amanda regardless of her guilt or innocence.

KING: Do you think that is because she is stoic? Is that the kind of person she is?

MELLAS: You know, she's very much a person who internalizes. She was extremely upset, and her roommate testified that when she found out it was Meredith that was killed, she was very upset. She cried. She did all of that. But by the time those photos were taken, it was hours later, and she was being comforted by Raffaele.

And those that know her, you could see the shock in her face. She was just devastated.

KING: Do you know the boy?

KNOX: Yeah, I have met him over there a few times.

KING: They're no longer boyfriend and girlfriend, right?

KNOX: No.

KING: But they're still together, and they're still --

(CROSSTALK)

KNOX: They're still friends, but they're being tried together.

KING: We'll be back with more. Judy Bachrach, the contributing editor of "Vanity Fair," has written about this case, who's lived in Italy, she'll join us. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: News cameras are not allowed in the courtroom during some of the testimony. So what you're seeing was shot off a TV screen. It explains the less than perfect quality that we're used to showing you.

Joining us is Judy Bachrach, contributing editor at "Vanity Fair." She's in Washington, written about this case for the magazine. She's lived in Italy, was back there less than three months ago. What's your read, Judy?

JUDY BACHRACH, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "VANITY FAIR": Well, there are two Italys, which nobody seems to really understand who lives in this country. And one is the Italy of the privileged and government officials, and for instance, of Silvio Berlusconi, who runs the country. And he tries to have laws passed that allow him immunity in the event he's charge with corruption.

And then there's the Italy that tries the ordinary person. And the ordinary person is considered guilty until proven innocent. Italy's laws are direct descendants of the Inquisition. And therefore, Amanda, who is, after all, an American and a foreigner, and somebody to be suspicious of, is going to have the book thrown at her.

Nobody's going to believe her. She's going to be kept, as she indeed was, in isolation, grilled for 14 hours at a time, slapped around by the cops. And whatever comes out of those so-called interviews is going to be taken as gospel.

KING: You think, therefore, she's going to be found guilty?

BACHRACH: I think that in Italy, there's something called "brutta figura," which literally means you show a bad faith to the world. If they don't convict her, if she's found innocent after two years of being in jail for a crime she didn't commit, then Italy looks like it has a very corrupt judicial system.

It has a "brutta figura," which it really does. It has a very corrupt judicial system, and they will show an ugly face to the universe. And that's the last thing they want. And that is something that Edda and Curt have to be aware of, that this is a country that looks at an ugly face as the worst thing that can possibly happen to Italy. Not convicting a girl of something she didn't do, but of looking bad in the eyes of the universe.

KING: But don't they love Americans in Italy, Judy?

BACHRACH: They love some Americans. I have to say, in this instance, they don't love Amanda. Perugia's a very small town. It is very -- in -- in a sense, it's very close-minded. It is not Rome. It is not Paris. And it looks at Amanda in a different way than, say, she'd be looked at if she was living in Sydney or New York City.

They're very provincial. The prosecutor is famously incompetent and very right wing. He does not like her; he did not like her style of life. And she is being judged on that rather than anything she may or may not have done to that poor British girl.

KING: John, what would a -- what would -- what --

BACHRACH: -- of evidence.

KING: I -- I gather you're as strong as John on this. John, what would an appeal be like?

JOHN: Well, ironically, both sides could appeal. I mean, Amanda can be acquitted --

KING: Really?

JOHN: She could leave the country, and then, on appeal, they could convict her and seek to extradite her back to Italy, after an appeals court -- KING: Whoa.

JOHN: -- would convict her. And there's -- there's such a level of vindictiveness here, I could see that almost happening.

KING: Edda and Curt, you guys feel --

BACHRACH: I can -- I can see it happening --

KING: Hold -- hold on a second, Judy. Hold it Judy.

KING: Edda and Curt, you must feel very apprehensive.

MELLAS: It's scary.

KNOX: It is. It's one where we have to believe that what they're hearing in court -- and it's so clear that she had nothing to do with it -- then they'll come out with the right answer. I mean, that's -- that's what we have to believe.

KING: When are you going over there?

MELLAS: We're leaving just as the -- as the closing arguments go and the verdict. So the end of November.

KNOX: Yes.

MELLAS: Yes, there's always somebody over there. My brother's there right now. My husband's going next week.

KING: Thank you very, very much. Thanks for coming. We wish you the best. Thank you Judy Bachrach and John Q Kelly, as always, thank you.

BACHRACH: My pleasure.